Culturally different or just fucked up?

[Mothy]

I have to say I'm somewhat a cultural relativist- what is wrong in one culture is perfectly fine to do in another culture. But at some point I guess things are just wrong no matter what. But is it right for western culture to tell Japan they're wrong?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc...ex.html?hpt=C2

The national government is considering making possession of child pornography illegal -- currently it is not. But this possible change to the law is due to outside pressure, not internal protest.
Cleveland says Japan has some of the most heinous examples of child pornography in the world. "It's a country that has been held to task by the U.N. for human trafficking and exploitation of women."
"Japan has ways of expressing sexuality that are practically indecipherable to a Western sensibility but that are so normalized in Japan that the Japanese don't often understand or acknowledge the critiques that are made against them," Cleveland says.

Japan has different ideas about sexuality than western cultures do. Should we try to force them to align these ideas with our own?

Of course I expect everyone to say hell yeah, this shit is just plain wrong. And I would agree with you. But I would like some better reasoning. Because I've always believed we don't have have the right to impose our moral views on a culture that doesn't have those moral views. So why exactly is this so different?

[Trenody]

I'm all for cultures embracing their history and traditions, and enjoying what makes us all different...but some things are just plain wrong, like slavery, rape, and exploitation of children, and should not just be excused away as "cultural differences". I don't really give a damn how entrenched in tradition something is, if it involves deliberately harming others, it is wrong. I feel the same way about the mutilation of girls' genitalia in some African tribes. That is sick.

[Mothy]

Where is the line though? I mean in the west we have graphic depictions of violence in our video games, movies, etc.. Some fo this that people are getting up in arms about is video game and cartoon depictions of rape or child molestation. We say murder is wrong, and child molestation is wrong- but then we say we can depict murder, but not child molestation. Isn't this just merely one culture imposing it's morals on another?

I think the actual act itself is more clear. Yes- rape and child molestation is actually harming someone so you can easily say to another culture- stop harming people. But when it's something that in and of itself harms no one. Should we really impose our morals on them?

[Kalliea]

I've played this game. It's tame compared to other Japanese titles. The only reason it got such hype in the states is because it has 'rape' right in the name.

I think Japanese obsession with rape is...disturbing, but this game actually shows the lighter side of the fantasy. You stalk and rape women, but (magically) the woman seem to like it and beg for me.

Again, I don't like the Japanese ideals, but for this one particualte topic, I'm more mad at all the crazies who see the title and an over view and scream that Japan is evil and blah blah blah....

Japan is evil for much better than this. Get with it!

[Trenody]

Yeah, I don't know. I guess if a culture doesn't have an outcry against the depiction of such heinous stuff, then as outsiders, we don't really have any right to impose our morals on them. But I find such games to be repugnant, wherever they are, and truly believe it can desensitize youth against the horror of such crimes and leave them with a warped sense of reality. I like good old-fashioned "kill the Bad Guys" video games as much as the next person, but I'm really not a fan of the "rape and slaughter random innoncents" games, like GTA.

[Sciby]

I don't get the rape appeal... but is that because I was raised in a western society, or because my brain is wired that way?

I'm accepting of cultural differences, but if there is an act that causes pain, fear or persecution, then it's not a cultural difference. All cultures experience those emotions and situations, so everyone on the plan should/would know that they're negatives, not something to be actively pursued. I think that Western culture is also wrong in its glorification of violence and brutality towards other humans but even then I'm probably a hypocrite because I enjoy violent video games, but I don't enjoy hurting or humiliating a woman in bed.

Give me a woman who's gagging for it, rather than a small girl weeping and saying stop, any day of the week.

[Chjoey]

Ugh.

I have conflicted feelings about this.

It's true that murder is worse than rape but for some reason I have no problem with violent video games. I do have a problem with rape games.

Maybe it's b/c (imo) violent games aren't linked to sexual desire. I'm sure most people don't play first person shooters or RPGs to get off (sexually).

However... a rape game is aimed at sexual gratification (isn't it?).

I think that's where the difference lays.

I don't know.

Fuck. Fuck Japan. They should just Westernize themselves. :P lol

[sine_qua_non]

I think this is a really interesting point of discussion, Mothy. For someone who often takes trivial things about Japan and posts them up as "look at more proof of how much Japan sucks," I'm glad that you're being objective about something that is truly controversial.

That said, I honestly don't know the answer to your question of why is THIS specific thing wrong. Because to me, the answer is "because in my culture, it is." Americans see this and are in complete disbelief. How can Japan be so horrible? What sort of evil country is this? And the thing is... it's not. I live here every day. People go to work, they buy groceries, they do spend time with their families. They aren't horrible, uncaring, rapists that eat your children. I'd basically agree with the quote about Japanese people not really understanding foreign criticisms of this sort of thing, because they're so desensitized to it.

My American upbringing doesn't allow me to say "yes, rape games and depicting child porn is okay." Because my opinion is that no, it's not. However, I am an American. I was not raised in Japan. I don't have the same cultural history, the same values, etc. And it's hard to take a step back and be objective because I'm far too close to the American perspective. I will always be biased, no matter how much I say I'm not. The things we see wrong with Japan are things that are fundamentally different from what we understand to be right based on our own cultural values. So to say that Japan would be better if they westernized themselves is not fair--that's just us trying to make it more suitable for ourselves. Japan is the way it is, and they've been doing just fine.

I guess the whole thing is reminiscent to me of missionaries converting "heathens" to Christianity. That sense of "these are our morals and values, and they are correct. Yours are wrong, so you should change to be more like us so you can stop being horrible people."

[Chjoey]

(I hope you know I was joking about my Westernize Japan comment). lol

[sine_qua_non]

I know you were. No worries. I was saying that kinda in general, but your comment did kind of spark my response going in that direction.

[kraM]

http://www.tsurupeta.info/content/op...nogami-takeshi

A letter from manga artist Nogami Takeshi responding to CNN's recent 'Rapelay' coverage

[sine_qua_non]

Interesting letter. My first thought is "haha, owned," because he made a lot of good points. But at the same time, I did disagree with some things, and he was kind of hypocritical; painting the states in a very bad light when complaining about how the report represented Japan. While I'm a big fan of jumping to Japan's defense, I didn't like the condescending attitude. It focused less on "here are cultural differences that make this okay in Japan" and more on "Well, this is okay in Japan, and by the way, look how awful the US is by comparison."

[Chjoey]

He has a point though. I do feel much safer in this country than I do in the US, regardless of the types of games/porn that exists here.

There's no real evidence linking bad behavior to these types of video games/porn. There are people that state that things like this 'normalize' anti-social behavior of rape/molestation of children but there's no real evidence.

Eh.

It didn't come off as condescending imo, just defensive.

[sine_qua_non]

Yeah, he definitely made good points. Some of the same ones I would have also made in that argument. I hope people don't completely dismiss it just because they can't get over their prejudices.

As far as whether it was condescending, I guess that can be difficult to distinguish from being defensive, so hard to say if it was. I may read it again later. I guess that with as defensive as I get about Japan, I am just as defensive of my own country, no matter its faults. I think it just bothers me when my students talk about how "dangerous" America is, and he makes it out the same way... and yeah, I guess compared to Japan it is, but I don't think it's really that bad in most places. Maybe because I take the exact same precautions here as I do in the US--yeah, statistically, Japan is a lot safer, but bad things can happen to anyone in any country, so in that sense, I don't feel that much different. But I guess I do feel safer traveling alone basically anywhere in Japan than I would to many places in the US.

[Sciby]

It's true that murder is worse than rape but for some reason I have no problem with violent video games. I do have a problem with rape games.

I'm not quite sure about how murder can be worse than rape - with a murder, it's terrible but the victim is at least no longer suffering, but a rape victim is potentially suffering for the rest of their life. One act can destroy their ability to interact socially, to form healthy relationships with new men, to trust people, to feel safe again. Some women are able to move on, and some never do.

Maybe it's b/c (imo) violent games aren't linked to sexual desire. I'm sure most people don't play first person shooters or RPGs to get off (sexually).

I'd be REALLY worried about someone who was getting off to that type of game. Mind you, Freud would have a lot to say about the act of violently penetrating other people with penis-like objects.

However... a rape game is aimed at sexual gratification (isn't it?).

Nope, just like real rape, it's about power and domination and very little to do with sexual gratification or release. It has more in common with violent video games than a porno... although a lot of pornos now are featuring more and more male-domination elements.

I'm sure there's some weirdos who'll jerk off to a game like Rapelay from the sexual bits, but the main theme of exerting irresistible power over women will be the real appeal.

[Mothy]

I'm not quite sure about how murder can be worse than rape - with a murder, it's terrible but the victim is at least no longer suffering, but a rape victim is potentially suffering for the rest of their life. One act can destroy their ability to interact socially, to form healthy relationships with new men, to trust people, to feel safe again. Some women are able to move on, and some never do.

But the families of those murdered are traumatized. So I'd say murder is most definitely worse than rape. There's a chance that the woman shrugs it off and more or less moves on. But even though the murdered person is done worrying about it, the trauma caused to the loved ones of the murdered victim does last just as permanantly as someone who was raped. And this is wholly discounting the value of a human life. I would 100% have to say that murder is a more serious and damaging crime than rape, every fucking time.

[Chjoey]

Sciby, I don't listen to anything Freud had to say b/c he was a quack. His research was based on a tiny sample of rich Vienna women. Freud, and people who still study his theories, are the reason psychology isn't taken seriously as a science. Meh.

Rape is about power and domination but you cannot deny the fact that there is sexual release involved. And yeah, people do get off on rape, both the perps and victims (er, not the victims of actual rape, but there are people out there like to get pretend-raped). Of course it's not 100% sexual but there's plenty of sex in rape. Surely you can fathom both the ones that like the idea of raping or getting raped being attracted to this game to enjoy on a sexual level?

And I agree with Mothy.... murder is far worse than rape in most cases.

[Coollead]

The CNN writer in question has a history of depicting Japan as a sick, fucked up nation. She's very obviously anti-Japan, and it seems people bought into her craziness.

The game was very, very little known and out of print when she first wrote about it. It was just written off as some crappy game. Oh well. Anti-Japan is more headline grabbing though, especially at a time where the American media is trying to drag Toyota into the ground with all the negative (and in some cases, false) coverage.

[Sciby]

But the families of those murdered are traumatized. So I'd say murder is most definitely worse than rape. There's a chance that the woman shrugs it off and more or less moves on. But even though the murdered person is done worrying about it, the trauma caused to the loved ones of the murdered victim does last just as permanently as someone who was raped. And this is wholly discounting the value of a human life. I would 100% have to say that murder is a more serious and damaging crime than rape, every fucking time.

A woman (or man) doesn't just shrug off being raped, its not like she got into a cat fight in a bar - that and the "every fucking time" are ignorant generalisations, no offence. Being brutally forced to do something against your will, to be violently physically assaulted in a way that should occur only in a positive light is not something a woman would just brush off, unless they were so disassociated already from reality that it doesn't even make a blip on their mental radar. A person being raped is discounted as a human being just as badly as someone murdered: they're treated as an object, something to be dominated, humiliated and abused. And let's not forget the victims who end up taking their own lives because they can't cope.

Does this mean I'm saying rape somehow holds more weight than murder? No. I'm saying that if anything, they're just as bad as each other. Mind you, this is all pure opinion - one being "higher" than the other is not a measurable fact.

Sciby, I don't listen to anything Freud had to say b/c he was a quack. His research was based on a tiny sample of rich Vienna women. Freud, and people who still study his theories, are the reason psychology isn't taken seriously as a science. Meh.

I only mentioned him tongue-in-cheek. I doubt very much whether the act of shooting someone could be seriously construed as sexual in nature, although I'm sure there's some psych major who'd try.

Rape is about power and domination but you cannot deny the fact that there is sexual release involved. And yeah, people do get off on rape, both the perps and victims (er, not the victims of actual rape, but there are people out there like to get pretend-raped). Of course it's not 100% sexual but there's plenty of sex in rape. Surely you can fathom both the ones that like the idea of raping or getting raped being attracted to this game to enjoy on a sexual level?

Of course I can fathom that, but that would be the icing on the cake for people interested in the game imho. I'm quite sure there's some sexual element to rape but I doubt very much if anyone would be interested in that game because of the sexual content alone; otherwise they'd just watch regular porn. Look at this country - the stereotype of the misogynistic, overbearing Japanese man is literally on every train and in every bar. They want to get their rocks off, sure, but they also want to exert power, to hold control and dominate utterly.

And to my understanding, pretend-rape is again about domination and control, but for the "victim" more about the dangerous thrill of having control taken away from you . However, I think it's fair to say that role-play rape involves more of the sexual element than actual rape does.

And I agree with Mothy.... murder is far worse than rape in most cases.

Being dead isn't the worse that can happen to you. That said, I'm sure there's victims of rape who are glad they're still alive, and are trying to deal with the memories and the outcome, but saying that one somehow outweighs the other just seems ridiculous.

[Mothy]

A woman (or man) doesn't just shrug off being raped, its not like she got into a cat fight in a bar - that and the "every fucking time" are ignorant generalisations, no offence. Being brutally forced to do something against your will, to be violently physically assaulted in a way that should occur only in a positive light is not something a woman would just brush off, unless they were so disassociated already from reality that it doesn't even make a blip on their mental radar. A person being raped is discounted as a human being just as badly as someone murdered: they're treated as an object, something to be dominated, humiliated and abused. And let's not forget the victims who end up taking their own lives because they can't cope.

Does this mean I'm saying rape somehow holds more weight than murder? No. I'm saying that if anything, they're just as bad as each other. Mind you, this is all pure opinion - one being "higher" than the other is not a measurable fact.
Being dead isn't the worse that can happen to you. That said, I'm sure there's victims of rape who are glad they're still alive, and are trying to deal with the memories and the outcome, but saying that one somehow outweighs the other just seems ridiculous.

I have several friends who have been raped and treated it like nothing more than getting mugged. Sure it's awful and humiliating- but it doesn't have to be some sort of traumatic life altering event. People get drunk and have sex with people they have no desire to have sex with when sober- I'm not saying that that is the same as rape, but it has some of the same elements and people will usually just laugh that off, unless they pick up some sort of disease. Why would rape be so different? The main difference would be being controlled by someone else. But there are many situations where we are in someone elses control, and yet we don't treat it as traumatic as rape. Really I think our society plays up the horribleness of rape, maybe because of our fear of sex in general (as a society).
And sure, saying 100% of the time murder is worse than rape is a generalisation, but it's close enough to accurate I'm not worried about it. Maybe the actual percentage is 99.7% but I'm ok with rounding up.
As for being dead not being the worse thing that can happen to you- yes, that's true. But once again you're ignoring the trauma to the loved ones of a murder victim. It's not all about the victim.
Your view of rape seems to say that the rapist may as well off the woman after, since it's all the same. But also to me the value of a human life is far more than the value of their sex or dignity, so rape can never be as bad as murder.

[Sciby]

I have several friends who have been raped and treated it like nothing more than getting mugged.

I'm coming at it with friends from the other end of the scale, and describing it as "mugged" would have been preferable. Maybe the people you know are stronger mentally, maybe they have a different view on sex and promiscuity, I don't know. That doesn't diminish anything experienced by people I know. You can't paint them all with the same brush that you've seen.

Sure it's awful and humiliating- but it doesn't have to be some sort of traumatic life altering event.

You say this like the victim has a choice in the matter. Should they just be quiet and enjoy the ride? Sure, every event has the capacity to be life-altering, dependant on how you view it, but I doubt that many victims view being raped as something they shrug off and then laugh about on the way to the movies.

People get drunk and have sex with people they have no desire to have sex with when sober- I'm not saying that that is the same as rape, but it has some of the same elements and people will usually just laugh that off, unless they pick up some sort of disease. Why would rape be so different?

I'm not sure how you see these two as comparable? Someone getting drunk and sleeping someone they normally wouldn't when sober is still consensual and both parties are willing (but drunk) participants. Rape is the complete opposite of this. There's no loss of control, or humiliation, or power asserted in a negative manner towards one person. Are you micro-trolling me?

The main difference would be being controlled by someone else. But there are many situations where we are in someone elses control, and yet we don't treat it as traumatic as rape. Really I think our society plays up the horribleness of rape, maybe because of our fear of sex in general (as a society).

Yes, there's many different situations for loss of control/free will, but very few come close to stripping you of your dignity in a physically violent act, unless you hold a very strange job. Perhaps this is a cultural view thing - Australia isn't exactly fearful of sex but then, I'm not sure how the US would be fearful of sex either. America seems to be the complete anti-thesis of what the pilgrims went looking for.

And sure, saying 100% of the time murder is worse than rape is a generalisation, but it's close enough to accurate I'm not worried about it. Maybe the actual percentage is 99.7% but I'm ok with rounding up.
As for being dead not being the worse thing that can happen to you- yes, that's true. But once again you're ignoring the trauma to the loved ones of a murder victim. It's not all about the victim.

The family of a rape victim has to help someone through a traumatic experience, unsure of how to deal with it, sometimes irrationally blaming themselves for not being able to protect the one they love. Then there's future relationships the victim may try to create - those new men are affected too from the extra consideration and effort needed to help a victim move on, to gain a healthy view of things again. And then of course, what happens if a victim commits suicide out of dispair of what happened? Loves ones of both victims suffer - how much comparatively is something that cannot be weighed or measured and obviously changes from case to case.

Your view of rape seems to say that the rapist may as well off the woman after, since it's all the same. But also to me the value of a human life is far more than the value of their sex or dignity, so rape can never be as bad as murder.

I'm not saying that at all - I'm saying that in my eyes both act and outcome is abhorrent and traumatic as the other, for different reasons and in different ways. In some cases, the result of a rape is worse than death because to the victim the suffering never ends. Saying that one outweighs or can never be as bad as the other is something you're entitled to do as its your opinion, but your view on rape comes across as rather callous and almost dismissive.

[Trenody]

While they are both abhorrent acts, if I had to choose between the two evils, I'm pretty sure I'd rather be raped than murdered. I mean, at least with rape I'd have a shot of coming through the trauma and being able to live a full life. With murder...no chance whatsoever. But yeah...they're both terrible, terrible deeds.

[Sciby]

In my humble opinion, it all hinges on the intimate values of each person, and how you can handle a trauma. I'm pretty sure that it's on an even keel for me between being killed and being violently raped. My bum is a one way zone, thankyouverymuch.

A friend of mine was beaten up very badly by three guys at a train station about 10 years ago, and as a result, he couldn't leave his house for 3 years. He was almost catatonic at the thought of going outside. Sure, he wasn't killed, but his life was pretty much destroyed and he literally suffered those three years. It took him a long time and a lot of therapy to the point where he'd come out to dinner... but even then, he'd always stand right next to me or another large friend who he felt safe with. He still has an awful time trusting new people and forming new friendships.

I'm not saying that he'd be better off dead, but he's still paying for what happened.

[sine_qua_non]

I don't think I could ever bring myself to quantify things like murder and rape. And as a woman, it's shocking to think that someone could treat it as "ah, well, most women just get over it and laugh it off."

Rape can actually cover a great many situations, so think about what exactly different women have gone through that might make them deal with it differently--the girl who was drunk at a party and a guy forced himself on her and she couldn't/was afraid to resist. The girl who gets yanked down an alley and assaulted very violently in the process. A teenage girl who gets attacked by a "close family friend." Rape isn't just having sex you don't want. It can be very terrifying and very scarring, and it will effect different people differently.

[Mothy]

Anything can be traumatic and scar you. My wife dropped some scalding hot water on herself as a child and now she has a fear of hot things. But burning yourself is not as bad as murder. Just because something CAN do great damage, doesn't mean it SHOULD do great damage, or that the act in and of itself is as bad as taking a life.

I'm not sure how you see these two as comparable? Someone getting drunk and sleeping someone they normally wouldn't when sober is still consensual and both parties are willing (but drunk) participants. Rape is the complete opposite of this. There's no loss of control, or humiliation, or power asserted in a negative manner towards one person. Are you micro-trolling me?

I'm not saying that at all - I'm saying that in my eyes both act and outcome is abhorrent and traumatic as the other, for different reasons and in different ways. In some cases, the result of a rape is worse than death because to the victim the suffering never ends. Saying that one outweighs or can never be as bad as the other is something you're entitled to do as its your opinion, but your view on rape comes across as rather callous and almost dismissive.

Um, alcohol = loss of control. Making bad embarrassing decisions = humiliation. Like I said, it's the same except for the fact that someone else has control over you. I'm not saying that rape isn't horrible. It most certainly is. But to place it anywhere near murder in the prism of the world's wrongs seems to me callous towards those whose lives have been cut short and towards those who have had their loved ones taken from them.

And I'm pretty sure I never said people laugh off rape or should laugh off rape. I'm just saying it only adds one variable to something we do laugh off, and that one variable isn't such a big deal as to bring it anywhere near the level of horror as society seems to place it at.

Rape is bad. But there are things that are far far worse.